Listen to the Seventh instalment of the Choosing an Agency podcast.

Alex interviews Nathan Lomax, Co-Founder of Quickfire Digital who speaks about the need for specialists rather generalists and how he built an agency based on this mantra. He goes on to discuss the importance of agency chemistry and how to the leadership team are a clients best starting point when choosing and agency.

Alex: Hello, and welcome to choosing an agency. My name’s Alex and I'm here to talk about how to select the right agency to grow your business, giving you the inside line on things to look out for the next time you need external support. I'll be interviewing industry figures from all manner of backgrounds to get hints and tips on the things to consider when choosing an agency. Today, I'm joined by the fantastic Nathan Lomax at Quick Fire. Hi, Nathan.

Nathan: Hi, Alex. How are you doing?

Alex: Yeah, good. Thank you. Good. So, for people that are just meeting you for the first time, and frankly, I think that's impossible - could you share a little bit more about who you are and what you do?

Nathan: Yeah, sure. Thank you. So, my name is Nathan. I'm co-founder of an agency called Quick Fire Digital. Quick Fire Digital are an ecommerce focused digital evolution agency, we focus on Shopify and Shopify plus, and the whole premise came about through understanding the need for specialists rather than generalists. So, rather than trying to do everything for everybody, it was about really finding what you're good at, identifying your swim lane and sticking to it. So, we spend all of our time designing and building sites, and then working with clients to grow their eCommerce businesses. We don't get involved in SEO, we don't get involved in PPC, and hence why we recommend to people like yourselves, but yeah, there's a there's kind of my role within the business - I'm co-founder of the agency. So, I focus on new business growth, client retention, I really get a buzz from growth in people, whether that be internally or externally. And as you will know, you've probably heard the famous stories about the 400 conversations a month, but essentially, I’ll try and speak to as many people as I can, and follow that model of reciprocity, E.g., pay it forward, help others, it's not all about the sale. I was talking to someone just today and I said, you know what, you need to speak to this person, this person, this person. And he said, well, what about yourself? And I said, you're not going to be ready for us right now, and nor should you be. Do these bits first and then come back to us in due course. And that I believe is how more business should be done. It's all about ethical business trading, it’s not all about chasing the money.

Alex: Absolutely. So, paying it forward is an important thing and so, what's your experience prior to co-founding Quick Fire? What was your experience of the agency world?

Nathan: None. So, I was at school, I was incredibly fortunate. My grandparents put me through private school in Holt and I was there for seven or eight years. I essentially left there with a real bee in my bonnet to start my own business. I was fortunate enough to have some work experience in an agency when I was about 16. I was doing some data entry for them and I enjoyed that to be fair, but actually, I then went travelling for 18 - well for about six months, but I saved up for 12 months prior after leaving school, saved up went travelling, spent everything I'd saved, got back, and decided, you know what, I believe that the stuff I was doing in that agency, I could do myself. And so, I decided to start it up, we were selling websites for four or 500 pounds. And we just went from there, the reputation started growing, we started getting good results for clients. And as we all know, this is a results-based business. So, we did one good thing and that led to another good thing which led to an opportunity here and there. And all of a sudden, we start doing stuff further afield, and we pick up a project in Australia, some in London, and all of a sudden it just ballooned. And before I knew it, there was an offshore team out in India originally building the sites and I was winging the sites, so that was fine as a lifestyle business but actually, as I got to 21-22, I was having an amazing lifestyle. But it wasn't the agency that I'd always dreamed of, and that agency was something that I could leave for a day to have a round of golf or to spend time with family or friends - whatever - and it would be able to run without me. And actually, the way I'd set it up, it very much wasn't like that, and so decided in 2017 to bring it back to the UK and kind of onshore. And so built out a team in Norwich, picked up two other co-founders, and that's really where the Quick Fire journey begins. So, two other co-founders; Martin, who focuses on kind of systems and process, Fred who focuses more around kind of strategy for clients. And I look after new business and those kind of, again, back to that specialist rather than generalists - get three people that are really good in their own areas, but have weaknesses and others, blend them together and you get those economies of scale. And never did I think that, in the last three years, we’d get this far this quickly, but we have. We now have a team of 18 that I'm incredibly proud of her at Norwich, we've worked with some fantastic clients across the globe. And the results speak for themselves Alex and I'm over the moon with how the agency’s gone. The opportunities we've had to work with some really wonderful people, and the nice thing is that every day continues to be different. Yet, I still wouldn't say we're quite in that position where we can walk away and then leave it - I could, yes of course I could, but actually I'm far too much of a control freak – I can’t necessarily let go. And so, it’s important for me that when I do finally make the right highs and build the leadership team and everything else, then we can step back. And then we can spend more time with clients saying, okay well, this is, this is where you are now, where do you want to go? How are we going to help you get there? And those are conversations I enjoy having, and we'd like to be having much more of.

Alex: So, to get a feel for a bit more of who Nathan is, if you can invite four people, past or present, to a meal - who would they be?

Nathan: Love that. I'm a massive sports fan and so, my first would be Sir Alex Ferguson. Everyone thinks I'm a Norwich fan, and I am secretly. I played for Norwich several years as a kid when I thought I was going to be a professional footballer. That bubble was soon burst, and I realised that that was a pipe dream, and so I had to go and forge a different career. So, I’m actually a Man-United fan at heart and so Sir Alex Ferguson has been a huge inspiration in terms of management, in terms of leadership. I've actually just bought a book that he and several other managers have put together, so he would be the first person at the table. Next would be Barack Obama. I just for some reason, I just love him, I find him inspirational. I think the way that he went about his time in the US, I know he wasn't everybody's cup of tea, but I always think he came across, absolutely spot on and I was always a big advocate of that. So, he would be the second person. The third would probably be someone within the world of eCommerce, I would love to chat with the guy that started Gym Shark. He's called Ben and I just think he is a class apart; I think what he's done is phenomenal. And I would love to have dinner with him to learn more about his story. He's a young guy. He's incredibly ambitious and he's taken that brand from strength to strength, and he's floated it and he continues to grow and there’s no stopping the guy. He’s a real inspiration. The fourth, I think would be - I'm actually at heart a real family guy - so, I lost my grandmother last September, and she was a massive influence to me. So, I do anything to have another dinner with her.

Alex: Absolutely, I get that. And what a meal that would be.

Nathan: And the conversation.

Alex: Absolutely. I think I was speaking to someone who lost both his parents when he was very, very young, and his answer to that question was to have a meal with his parents and his sisters. And that was it. And I just absolutely get it, to have half an hour, an hour, four hours, with someone that you've lost, that you loved dearly, would be absolutely magical.

Nathan: Yeah, very much so.

Alex: So, the reason behind this podcast, what we're trying to do is to uncover some insights, sort of knowledge in terms of- how we can better help clients choose the right agency. So, we’re interviewing agencies across the spectrum: website agencies, SEO companies, PR agencies, radio agencies, but the whole sort of kit and caboodle. So, in terms of the next batch of questions, they're more about how we can help clients. And so, what's the worst bit of advice you've ever heard a client be given?

Nathan: I think it's someone that again - we ‘re quite often pitching and not always the cheapest. And so quite often, it's a case of, well, let's just start with this and then we'll get there. I'm all for a minimum viable product. Absolutely. If the minimum viable product has any substance whatsoever, and so starting an eCommerce store, without the cart function just makes zero sense. So, that was probably the most bonkers thing I've ever heard, okay, we can do your kind of online store for five grand rather than 10 grand, but actually, we're going to start it without a basket. It was like what are you actually – what’s the point in having these pages if you’re not going to convert? So, that to me was bonkers. I think the other one - there's a few rogue bits of advice I've heard floating around - but the other was around trying to do everything in-house when the client was clearly out of their depth. And I think for anyone listening to this, the most refreshing thing I've seen - and I was actually getting this call this morning - this guy was perfect. He knew what he was very good at, he knew so much about his product. He was an incredibly intelligent guy, but he absolutely knew where his weaknesses were, and where his strengths and weaknesses were. And that is so important, is having the humility to say, you know what, I'm brilliant at this part but I'm awful at this part and this bit is a bit I need help with - and that's why I'm coming to an agency. And if you can get in that position, then you can find a really powerful agency partnership. And if you can be honest and vulnerable with your agency, that to me is a sign of a good agency relationship. When you can say, you know what, Alex? I'm really struggling with Google ads. I don't understand it. Please, could you give me some help, as opposed to I've set up loads of campaigns and know what I'm doing. I've tried to do this. I've tried to do this. I've done this, I've done this, I think you're doing this right or this wrong – at the end of the day, why appoint an agency if you’re going to be like that? It's about knowing your limitations and saying, well, I'm hiring the experts. I'm investing in it, but I'm going to let them do their job, I'm not just going to sit on them all the time.

Alex: So, to empower them and let them get on with it?

Nathan: Yeah, absolutely.

Alex: When you're dealing with new business inquiries, how important is it for you to qualify leads that come in?

Nathan: Massively important, not just for our agency but also for the client. We turn away probably 60 to 65% of opportunities because of the chemistry and that’s two ways. That's they’re not going to be right for Quick Fire, E.g., they're not hungry to grow. They're not prepared to listen; they don't have the team in place to support what we're trying to suggest. Or they just don't seem the right fit in terms of personality type, and vice versa - sorry, we're going to be too expensive for you. There’s no point in me taking someone on, charging them for - even if they've got the money, what's the point? They're only going to regret it later down the line. This whole game is built on relationship and trust and rapport and respect and reputation. So, it's important that we qualify them and are also open and honest - sorry, I don't think we're going to be the right fit, the budget isn't right for you guys. I'm sorry, we're not going to be the right fit, what you're wanting - that service type - you're wanting Joomla, or you're wanting Magento, or whatever it is, that's not our wheelhouse. Let’s not try and do that. It's not going to be the right fit - sorry, you're wanting to build a website for a hospital. We don't do hospital websites, you’re better to speak to someone that specialises in hospital websites, I’m sorry – that’s not us. So, the qualification process is the most important. And it's not just qualification for the agency. And that's something I'd encourage anyone listening to this to take on board, is you as a retailer need to be qualifying out the agency - are they the right fit? Do they align from a kind of ethical and value point of view? That, to me, is really important from our side. Would I enjoy a beer with this person? Can I enjoy their company? Am I going to enjoy working together? Because if I'm not, then actually, do we need to be doing that piece of work? And actually, are we going to get the best results if we're constantly resenting that relationship? No, we're probably not. So, think about qualifying on both sides.

Alex: Yeah, and that chemistry is critically important. So, you have to be able to get along because with what we’re doing, that can be tricky enough. But with the web projects, there's a lot of seas to sort of navigate, and you need to have trust and be able to sort of get over specific situations that arise in the migration launch of your new website.

Nathan: I think that's the thing as well, is that a lot of people think a website process is a one-way stream, E.g., hire web company, step back and let them do the work. It's such an intrinsic process - you work so closely with a web agency e.g., normally, quite a lot of the content, the page structure in terms of layout of the page, a lot of it is a two-way conversation. It's a collaborative process. So, it's really important you can get on with that person, you buy into them, you buy into that journey as well and likewise for us. If I see a brand that, actually maybe doesn't have the right budget, but actually they do have something about them, they do just have that spark, they've got that bit of tenacity, then actually, sometimes that's just as important. And I'd sooner say, you know what, let's do it for 1000 pounds less, because actually, I would love to work with you, because I can see the vision of where you're going to take this company and I can really buy into that journey. And that's really fulfilling, right? It's important that as an agency, we're doing work that's fulfilling for our team. It's not just, oh great, Nathan loves football and a football lead’s come in. Well, that's great. But Nathan's not building it anymore. So, who's the people that are building it? We've got that kind of dream client list and so actually, how can we try and find those type of brands? The nice thing is, having such a wide range of people, we've got a whole range of brands from your Legos of the World, which was incredibly exciting and a really interesting campaign, right through to local cosmetics brands where, actually, one of the young ladies in the office said - I really like this brand. I would love to work with them.

Alex: Excellent. And so, for clients looking at working with agencies, what are the sort of things that they can do to start looking at the agency's reputation?

Nathan: The first thing to look at is your standing kind of Google reviews. There's sometimes Feefo, Trustpilot, etc., sometimes you’re on a Drum Recommends or some of those platforms. The first thing I would do is, I would go and Google the founders, I would go and find out more about the people behind that brand, go and look at their LinkedIn profiles, read their story, understand their journey, see the testimonials, understand if they're the type of people you could work with - because their kind of energy, their enthusiasm, their drive, their passion, should come through into the team. And so, that's where I would start to look at the founders, look at their journey, and see if they're the kind of people you want to be working with - then it's really important that you meet the team. So just understand, again, for our case, while I look after certain clients, I don't look after every client. And so, it's really important, just because you buy into me, you need to buy into the team as well. So, take that opportunity to meet the team. We always do a discovery session where you do meet your project team And I think that's really important, because we can have great chemistry Alex, but actually if I then say, oh, by the way, for your project, you're going to be dealing with Bob and Joe and you're like, actually I was I was quite enjoying working with you. And I really thought you got us and now these two don't maybe – so, making sure you meet the project team is hugely important. Of course, to qualify the client - I think the other thing to look at would just be, have they done relevant things or similar things in your sector? They don't always have to, but at the same time, you need something that's relatable ideally. So okay, they've built an eCommerce before, they've built in the platform you're looking into before, they've dealt with a company with a similar size turnover, they've done this, they've done that - they're just little things to look out for. All of this is just a guide, because sometimes, you know, the gut just takes over and you will know and I think that's – I think if you took one thing away from this segment it will be that just go with your gut, because your gut is normally right. You'll get a sense for someone probably in the first 10 seconds of talking to them, either I like this company or don't like this company. And sometimes it feels totally irrational. It might be because the shoes weren't polished, or it might be because the hair wasn't done, whatever it is, you will make an assumption. And normally that assumption is bang on. So don't be dissuaded from that and just consider okay, I did have that opinion. Unless someone does something drastic to change it e.g., actually, they started talking and their case deeds are phenomenal and everything else – do trust your gut at times.

Alex: Absolutely. I’ve got this really irrational thing that I do when I first meet someone in person – which I haven’t done for a long while now - a handshake, the quality of their handshake and I steal a little glimpse of their shoes. It's not even about their shoes being polished, it's just the type and the style of shoe they're wearing. For some reason, those two things enter into my subconscious and form part of my assessment of an individual.

Nathan: Yeah, it really is. It's in the small details, right? But actually, it just goes to show, well, is that person detail orientated? Are they not? Are they the type of person working on my project? If they're scruffy, then actually what does that mean to their code and everything else? It’s just little things like that. And I'm not saying you should base the whole decision on that but at the same time, don't discount those things. Just think about okay, does that person really understand - not only where their business is going today - but tomorrow, the next day, the next day, the next week, the next month, or next year, the next 18 months? Because you want to buy into longer term relationships, where they're on that journey as opposed to hiring and firing web developers as quick as you like, because they were great for today. But they're not right for tomorrow.

Alex: Absolutely. It’s a little like riding a bike with spare wheels. So, how important do you think an agency's values are for a client?

Nathan: I think they're massively important because at the end of the day, these are going to be instilled in the team and the people working on the project. I think the thing with agency values is, quite a lot of agencies, and we would be no exception, is that we've come up with these values and we don't necessarily swear by them day to day, E.g., we don't reinforce them enough. So, there’s certain values - the trust, the tenacity, all that good stuff, that continuous improvement, some of those things we do really, really well. But some of those values, and I'm really guilty of this, I keep bringing in new values and thinking actually, I think we should follow on there or do this because I always want to keep it fresh and keep pushing forwards. But I think it's important - values are massively important in terms of alignment between brand and agency. But at the same time, they're not the be all and end all. And what I mean by that is so many agencies talk a good game about values and actually, they don't follow up on it. I probably shouldn’t say that but unfortunately, that's the truth, right? Having spoken to 1000s of agencies, I know it all too well. And I was included - I really want to push forward on our values, I want to deliver on the values, I want us to be saying that these are our five values, and we do them every day, religiously. But the reality is we don't. So yeah, don't take it as the holy grail, but do pay some attention to it because it's interesting to see, okay, they share a common purpose. They buy into this, they do this, they have this way of working, which we either like or don't like.

Alex: Absolutely. I think values are - in the industry that I'm in – so, SEO and PPC, and especially SEO, there are some quite duplicitous, quite dodgy agencies about with quite – these values wouldn’t be worth the paper or the pixels they take up. I always think of values as - this is how we conduct ourselves when no one else is looking. And so, I think personally speaking, you get a sense to what people's values are and what they hold important, and they don't always need to be an exact replica of my values personally to get on - because there can be differences. And everyone's different from everyone. There's 7 billion people on the planet. But I think the values - if you can get a sense to what someone's values are in that process. I think it's quite an important thing for a client to think about.

Nathan: I think you hit the nail on the head there in terms of the industry is unregulated. So, there's a lot of people that talk a good game, but actually can't back it up. And so, it's important that with values, you actually see proof in the pudding. The best thing you can do, if you're a client looking to find an agency, is go and ask other people, go speak to other people and look for a recommendation because that person has experienced that firsthand. So okay, you would like to work with Quick Fire, have a look at some of our clients and go and ask them, call them up. We're looking to work with Quick Fire - or ask the agency for references. I'm interested to work with you guys. I'd like to speak to a few references. Who can I speak to? Okay, yeah, go and speak to this person, this person, this person, and then hear firsthand what it was like to work with that agency. Because, yes, they might have their values presented beautifully on the website, but whether they deliver against them day by day – I’d be skeptical.

Alex: Absolutely, absolutely. And I think some of our best learnings and areas where we've taken our relationships forward with clients, are in things that have gone wrong, and how we've done that dealt with those situations because that's when you have to really - the sort of moral underpinning of your values will help you manage that situation. So, we have situations where we will practically tell a client of a problem before they are aware of it, highlight the solution. And we've ended up going into meetings thinking, we're going to end up with a whole world of trouble, and actually, our relationship has been so enhanced by our approach to that problem that our clients are like, this is fantastic, really happy. And you can then move forward.

Nathan: It’s a really refreshing approach Alex and one that not enough agencies take - look, mistakes happen, everyone's human, like these things happen. But it's often how you deal with those areas and the solutions you bring to the table and the accountability you take in yourself to say, you know what, that was my fault. I'm not saying it was okay, I'll do whatever I can to make it right. But actually, understanding when you've got it wrong, and doing everything in your power to make it right is sometimes equally as important as making mistake in the first place. So, just think about, okay, if you do make that mistake, if you do get something wrong, or you do misquote something, or whatever, then put it right.

Alex: Absolutely. And so, when a client’s looking for work with an agency, are there any sort of red flags that a client should look out for?

Nathan: The biggest thing to think about is capacity. So, understanding when capacity is too many - certainly coming from an agency side, too many clients have unrealistic expectations of when something will be delivered. E.g., okay, I'm going to appoint a web agency and, in this time, next week, we should have the website finalised – that just doesn't happen. Anyone that tells you it can happen- the same in your industry, Alex - oh, you'll be top of Google Next week or we'll do this with your Google ads. It just, it doesn't happen. I don't want to say there's no magic bullet because there are some incredible technologies out there. But at the same time, any of these kind of get rich quick schemes, like what makes you think that your business is going to be different to anyone else’s? Surely, someone else would have experienced this. I always remember a story with a kind of lead gen provider that I came across and I thought, you know what, this is going to be the answer to all lead gen going forwards. This is a saving grace. And of course, it was utter hogwash. And of course, it was, but at the same time, I thought for some reason that I was different to everyone else and that our business would be different. And sure enough, it wasn't at all, it was exactly the same. And so yeah, just again, kind of follow your gut, but also just think logically like, Is there a business case behind this? Is there a silver bullet? No. Red Flags also would be around response times. So, when you're submitting a brief, okay, how long did it take to get back? Red flags will be around communication at the outset, red flags will be around kind of the qualifying process. Anyone that gives you a quote and doesn't want to go into discovery or anything like that – I’d be skeptical of that. And that's not just because it's our process, that’s standard process throughout the web world. Most people will want to have further, deeper conversations before they commit to building something. So yeah, just think about that. Essentially, everyone should follow, realistically, a discovery of some description, or a fact finder, or just some way of finding out more about the business and the functionality. Everyone should deal with a contract – if ever someone says, you don't need a contract, stay well away. Anyone that doesn't charge - and this can be a weird one - anyone that doesn't charge a percentage upfront, I'd be really skeptical of. I just find that the most weird way to work like, that just seems too good to be true. Then going forwards I’d say, anyone that doesn't design their site and just decides to use a theme or something. Again, there's absolutely nothing disparaging from those that do use themes because they're right for some businesses in the market, but at the same time, just know if your business is right for that or not. When it comes to build, just ask about the testing and the UAT process, what happens there? And then in terms of launch, just make sure that the relationship you've got with that party doesn't just end at launch, and you've got some kind of ongoing support or warranty. For us, it's a 12-month bug warranty. If you’ve found anything, it would be solved. I think that's really important just for that peace of mind to say, you know what, we're going to go into this relationship. We essentially do not know this party, and we don't know you as a client. However, everything we've said so far make sense. They understand our brand, they buy into our values, they share a similar ethos. And we've got some comfort control about that after sale, E.g., we're going to be looked after, we're going to have a dedicated project manager, we're going to have frequent check ins. And we've got this kind of snagging budget if we need it.

Alex: perfect. So other than that, nothing then?

Nathan: Apart from that, no red flags.

Alex: No, and I think that's really interesting. I think that discovery conversation is critical, and regardless of the industry you're in - because you can't, that will surface real business challenges that a client will have, that an agency should be able to then innovate around and come up with solutions, to help them solve their business problem. So, in terms of agencies that you admire in your space, which ones do you think are absolutely smashing out of the park at the moment?

Nathan: We've always started our agency based on mentoring and support from other agencies, and so there's some that automatically stick out. There's an agency called Fountain Partnership - you might know a guy called Marcus. Him, Rob, Laura, Rebecca, and the whole team took me under their wing and were incredibly supportive and continue to support us. So, I've always admired them and the results - the kind of proofs in the pudding, right? They continue to deliver great results and they grow from strength to strength. There's an amazing development agency called Cayenne, run by a guy called Laurent with two co-founders, Piers and Gav. Really, really nice agency, working with some cracking clients, really impressed with them. Market Candour, I believe he's also involved in this. He is a cracking guy and his heart’s in the right place and he's a very, very knowledgeable guy when it comes to SEO and the nicest thing about him is he's incredibly good with his time. So, about a week or two weeks ago, I had a bit of a bad day. He reached out to me just on the off, just to check in see to see how I was. I said it was an absolutely bad day. Within like an hour, we're on a call. We were chatting it through, he’s just a real good guy. One of those good guys you’d absolutely take to the pub and enjoy his company in and out of work. So, him definitely. Don’t want to blow too much smoke up the Climbing Trees trumpet, but I do think you guys are going from strength to strength and doing incredibly well. I've really enjoyed working together of late. Similarly, with a company called Launch Online, Jaye down there – I think she’s wonderful and the team they've built, they're doing some really nice work as well. So, there's a lot of agencies doing some very nice stuff, particularly in the East of England, I'm incredibly proud of the agency community. And I could go on - there's 10s of agencies that I would happily champion and say, you know what, they're cracking, and a lot of those are from the East of England. I'm so proud of this region.

Alex: Absolutely. I feel that the community that you've built up in Norwich and Norfolk amongst yourselves, is a lot more collaborative than us guys down in Essex. I think we maybe don't play as well with each other as you guys do.

Nathan: Yeah, that's something that I'm just desperately keen to again – once lockdown is properly eased and we can all meet. 100% would like to get the East of England collaborating a bit more. Eventually, the mission is to get all agencies collaborating a bit more but actually, for now, I've tried to do that over lockdown and had a lot of calls and introduced a lot of people. But actually, for now, just if the East of England could collaborate, you would see the opportunities - when everyone understands that there is room to play nicely with everybody, and you just stick to what you're good at. Don't try and eat all the pie, share it around, the opportunities just present themselves. But it's when those agencies think they can do everything and chase the revenue. That's when they seem to come into problems.

Alex: So, this has been great. Thanks ever so much. So, where can people find out more about you online?

Nathan: The best place to find out more about myself personally would be LinkedIn. The business would be the website, Quick Fire Digital. I'm always up for having an open and honest conversation and so if ever someone wants to email, just Nathan at Quick Fire digital dot com. I'm always happy to jump on the phone, chat to people and if you're a retailer looking to find the right agency, I'm happy to have an impartial - I say impartial - of course, I'd probably point you in the direction of Quick Fire Digital. But I will always do my best to say you know what? We're not going to be right for this. You need to speak to this agency. Got a question? Here, speak to this agency. You need to have consultancy first, or you need to have better strategy. Maybe you need to start with a brand refresh? Whatever it is, more than happy to point brands in the right direction. Because as I said right at the start, this whole agency world relies on reputation and trust. And so, it's all about giving the client the right solution. Not always what's right for you as an agency.

Alex: Perfect. Thanks so much for joining me today.

Nathan: Thank you so much for having me. I've really enjoyed it and I look forward to seeing you again soon.

Alex: Thanks for listening. If you found the conversation useful, please join me again next time for Choosing an Agency.

Choosing an Agency is available for you to download from all the usual podcast platforms or find out more, here: www.AlexHolliman.com